Guiding Children Through Grief | Feat. Pastor Ben Sullivan
The BIO Girls Podcast
Mental Health Awareness Month
Featuring: Pastor Ben Sullivan
May is Mental Health Awareness Month, a time to shine a light on the importance of mental well-being. At BIO Girls, we are dedicated to empowering young women, and supporting mental health is at the heart of our mission. In this episode, we engage in a meaningful conversation with Pastor Ben Sullivan of Hope Lutheran Church in Fargo, exploring the power of faith, resilience, and community in navigating life’s challenges. Join us for an inspiring discussion on finding hope, managing stress, and fostering emotional well-being for ourselves and those around us.
To learn more about BIO Girls visit www.biogirls.org.
Season 4, Ep. 2
Guiding Children Through Grief
Meet Our Episode Guests:
Ben Sullivan is a pastor at Hope Lutheran Church in Fargo, ND. He is married to his wife, Jade, and together, they have two young daughters—Ruby, who just turned two, and Betty, who is nearly four months old.
About The Episode:
In this episode, Pastor Ben Sullivan of Hope Lutheran Church in Fargo shares insights on faith, family, and navigating life’s challenges. He reflects on his journey as a husband and father, offering personal stories about parenting two young daughters and the joys and trials of family life. As summer approaches, Pastor Sullivan discusses the importance of community, resilience, and finding hope in everyday moments.
Listen to the full episode, on Spotify:
Show Notes:
Laura Scott
00:07
All right, perfect. Well, hello, I'm Laura Scott and I'm the COO of BIO Girls. And today, pastor Ben Sullivan from Hope Lutheran Church in Fargo is joining me to talk about grief, specifically helping children navigate grief. So grief can have a profound impact on children affecting them emotionally, physically, and even cognitively. As with everything, all children experience grief differently and can have an impact. The impact can vary depending on factors such as age, personality, support systems, and the nature of the loss. I'd like to frame our discussion today by reminding us all that we might grieve for a variety of reasons. It might be due to loss, such as the death of a parent, a close relative, or a pet. It could be because of a friend moving away, a separation or divorce appearance, or not being part of a group such as a sports team or a club. So Pastor Ben, thanks so much for being here today. Will you kick us off by telling us just a little bit about yourself?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
00:59
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for the invite to sit down. It's a joy to be able to do this as this is a wonderful topic and a wonderful organization and has such a bright future. So I'm a follower of Jesus. I'm a pastor at Hope Lutheran in Fargo, the husband of my wife, Jade of five years. So anniversary is coming up here in just a few short months. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. We have two, two kids at home, so a 2-year-old named Ruby, and then a four and a half month old named Betty, or three and a half, almost four month. So two girls, and it was Ruby's second birthday yesterday. So we got to celebrate with her and we celebrated by bringing her homesickness from daycare. So, but, but she's doing okay. She is with grandma today, but Oh, good. Yeah, so busy household. Lots of, lots of things looking forward as, especially as we're ready to kick off summer.
Laura Scott
01:56
Awesome. That's wonderful. Can you share a little bit about your background and your experience helping children and families navigate grief?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
02:04
Yeah, so I'm a pastor at a church and so one of the things I've recognized is there are so many people who are going through all kinds of things all the time and you just named a, a bunch of 'em there. Divorce loss of, you know, some someone or something, loss of a job, not feeling included. There are a lot of reasons that people feel kind of hurt, pain, grief in this life and working in the church. One of the things I've found is that people feel the, the freedom that they can come to the church and this is a safe place for them to be, to kinda let all of those things out to kind of do not just all the external things in life, but almost do the internal things of, of their soul. And so as a pastor, I get a chance to walk alongside of all kinds of people going through all of those things.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
02:56
You know, I do funerals. I get a chance to do a lot of youth ministry at the church. And so work with small group guides just like you. 'cause I know you're, you're a guide at our West campus and yes, I'm work with youth who Yeah. Have, are going through, you know, certain things and get a chance to sit down with them and, and process. And what I really appreciate is that our, our perspective that we bring is a perspective of faith. My job as a pastor is to preach and teach the Bible and specifically to preach and teach Jesus in the Bible. And we see Jesus is the representation of the compassion of God. You know, the, the shortest verse in the entire Bible, John chapter 11, verse 35 tells us that Jesus wept, that he, he met people in their grief. He didn't just dismiss it.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
03:48
He didn't tell 'em to, you know, move on and just kind of figure it out. He joined them in the midst of their grief and then show his resurrection hope in the midst of their grief. And so working in a context, I get a chance to really bring that perspective. And of course our, our church is called hope. And so, you know, it's, it's something where people going through all kinds of things, we get a chance to share, Hey, we do have hope. And it's not just a, a shallow hope that we have, but we have a, a resurrection hope because Jesus rose from the dead.
Laura Scott
04:21
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. I recently listened to a podcast in one of the quotes they shared was Hope is a verb with its sleeves rolled up. And I thought that was a really great reminder because hope can be difficult. It can be a lot of work to remind ourselves that we have to sometimes really try to focus on the positive and we have to really dig deep to find that resilience to, to work through grief and find that hope at the, at the end of our situation. Yeah.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
04:49
Doesn't always come naturally.
Laura Scott
04:52
It does not, especially depending on the situation that we're in. So you talked a lot about how the church can support grief and I just, I have so much respect for pastors. My dad passed away when I was little and our, I grew up in a small town and our small town pastor was such a support to my family during that time. But I'm curious what advice you might offer a family who's maybe not involved with the church or maybe doesn't feel a specific connection to a pastor, but feels like they might benefit or need some additional or just someone to talk to while they're processing grief.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
05:29
Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, of course connections are huge in a church. That's what churches filled with. It is connection. And a lot of people, if they don't have a connection to a church, they're, they're missing out on some of those different connections. But I feel like everybody knows somebody and it's likely that, you know, if you think of the people in your scope that you know, someone who may be connected to a faith-based group or some, something like that, or you know, connected to a school where they have, you know, school counselors there or something. And so sometimes it's not just about the connection that you have, but sometimes we're all connected to people who have other connections in their life. And so it's thinking about, you know, if I have this friend who I know, you know, attends this church or is involved in this group, or you know, relies on their faith in this way, thinking to themself, alright, how can I reach out?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
06:25
Maybe I don't have to reach out to the church specific. 'cause if you have no connection, but you have a connection to this person and that person can help, you know, if you reach out to them, they can help get you connected to people who can walk alongside of you and, and maybe help you get some of the help the care that, that you need in your own life too. 'cause I know a lot of members of our church, they, you know, the church is not just a, a ministry for pastors. If that was the case, that would be pretty unfortunate because like, I see our people all the time, which is wonderful, but there are so many more people out in our own community out in our world who I don't get a chance to see every single week. I, I have no connection with them, but the people I'm talking with have a connection with them.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
07:09
And so it's, you know, how are we building up our, our people to be people who are approachable available and willing to, to step in and make connections where needed and, and not be ashamed of, you know, saying, Hey, I think that this is, this could be a place for you and, and you can benefit from this. So it's long story short, hopefully, you know, someone has a connection with someone who may be able to have, you know, some tie into a church or some faith-based group and hopefully through those connections that they can get plugged in themselves somehow.
Laura Scott
07:43
I love that connection is a key component of the BIO Girls mission and of our programs. So each of our programs has space for five to 10, you know, adults who act as that connection and that mentor for the girls in our programs. And so I think that's a really important part and a really key piece of this is that you don't have to go directly to the, to the church. It's about finding that connection Totally. To faith. I love that.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
08:12
Yep. And we partner with, you know, a lot of outside organizations as well. So like Valley Christian Counseling, you know. Sure. And so recognizing that as a pastor, I'm not a counselor, I have limitations to what I'm able to do, but we have a connection with a place that, you know, can, can help with a lot more deeper things than I can. Of course my door's always open, I'm happy to connect on, you know, the, the more spiritual side of things and, and connection with, with the Lord. And then where there are areas where I, I know that I'm limited, I don't fear too much 'cause I know that we, we have tied in with other people who, who can help and, and it's a partnership.
Laura Scott
08:51
Thank you. So how can we support children if they seem to be angry at God or maybe feel abandoned from their faith after a loss or while they're experiencing and navigating their grief?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
09:04
Yeah, it's a really hard thing 'cause adults feel that too. I know plenty of adults who feel abandoned by God, anger towards God. And so absolutely kids definitely feel that, you know, in, in a sense, in many senses too. I think a, a huge thing for walking alongside a youth who may be angry with God is just to listen. Because sometimes we, you know, I I fall into this category where as a, a pastor at a church, sometimes I feel the need to try to fix things right away and try to, okay, here's a problem. I need to try to creatively, quickly think of a solution. And although I don't intend it, I think sometimes that can actually be a disadvantage that I'm, I'm not really sitting with people in their anger or trying to get to the bottom of like, Hey, what's actually going on?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
09:57
Maybe you have an actual reason to be angry and I'm just trying to fix a problem rather than sit with someone who's hurting. And I think about Psalm 39, in Psalm 88, you know, Psalms are wonderful books of worship. King David wrote a lot of them. And, and he kind of, in most psalms, he takes you on a journey. And so, you know, he'll kind of kick off the journey maybe in some worship, and then he'll kind of bring you down into a pit almost of despair, of, of herd, of anguish, of feeling disconnected with God. But almost always, he, he brings you out of that pit by the end of the p Solomon and, and shows how God's presence was with me. You know, he, he was able to deliver me from evil and all my enemies and all these, all these things. But Psalm 39 and Psalm 88, I think are in the Bible for a reason.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
10:51
And what's unique about them is that they, they don't follow that same pattern where you don't see this, you know, going down to the pit and then bringing you back up into a place of hope. It's almost like he starts off going down into the pit and it just keeps going down. He keeps going down and it leaves you in this place of like, kind of a hopeless despair. Like, I, I don't really see God in this. And yet it's in the Bible. And we see that the writers of these psalms express, you know, hurt pain. They're going through suffering. They express some anger towards God in the midst of that. But one of the powerful things that I think that we can learn from that is, is that bringing our anger, bringing our frustration, bringing our pain to God is actually a tremendous act of faith.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
11:39
Because it's one thing to become angry God to a point where we just don't want to have anything to do with him. So we turn away from him and we don't talk to him at all. And we just kind of, we just leave it at that. But one of the things that we see modeled here is that they bring their anger to God himself. And, and they're expressing that to him. They're talking to him about it. And so even in their anger, even in their frustration, they're, they're having some faith shown where they're expressing that faith to God by still talking to him and bring it to him. And you know, I think of times in my own life where I felt like I was angry at God or something happened that I didn't understand. And you know, there were times where I felt like just running away and really not having to deal with, with him at all and not running to think about it.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
12:30
But for whatever reason I've always felt this pull like, you know, hey here's the opportunity for me is rather than just letting that stir in me and just 'cause it doesn't ever really go away, express that to him. Like, what is it that's making me angry? Why am I feeling anxious? Why am I feeling frustrated? Why am I, you know, feeling all of these different things and being very raw with the Lord? Because I think when we do that, he meets us in that space. And he listens. You know, last night for middle school ministry, we did ask the pastor, you know, where we have pastors up front and we, you know, work through questions together that our youth are having. And I was at our north campus and I think there's some message that comes across that in our culture sometimes that it's not okay to ask questions about faith.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
13:21
It's not okay to be angry or to question or to, you know, get upset. We always have to act like everything is okay. And I don't think that's actually true and it's not actually helpful. I think it's really good to ask questions. It's really good to wrestle with doubt and the invitation and our doubt is to bring that doubt and bring that frustration to him. 'cause he can take it. And, and he has answers for us. And he, he works with us in that process to bring us from a place of maybe pain and anger to a place of deeper understanding, but also like deeper relationship with him too.
Laura Scott
13:58
I love that Pastor Stephanie actually touched on that last night at West Campus and just really, you know, encouraged everyone to question yes. You know, ask questions, question, faith, and, you know, find fellowship in the church and that's where our faith deepens and where we have a get a better understanding of our faith. And so I thought that was really helpful. I think especially for that middle school, high school age group where there are a lot of questions and maybe just a lack of understanding on what it means to be faithful and how to lean into that as well, to navigate through these difficult situations. Totally.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
14:37
Yep. And I think just to re remember, like even as a pastor, I have questions too. Like we all, we, none of us has everything figured out and so this is where we get a chance to, we don't see it as an opportunity to tell our youth a whole bunch of things and just to fill their minds with information, but to say, Hey, we're on this journey together. These are great questions. Let's open up the word together and let's see what does God have to say about this?
Laura Scott
15:03
I love that. So you touched on this briefly, and I think it's really important to remember and call out. I think oftentimes when a child is grieving or going through a difficult situation, often the entire family is working through that entire process together. So as an adult, right, I have those really complex feelings. How do I help, you know, my child or as a, as a caregiver help other children navigate through that when I am experiencing grief at the same time? And really, you know, like balancing the how do I share what's appropriate for them and how do I help them through? And I'm maybe questioning and like you said, down in those deep valleys as well.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
15:49
Yeah, yeah. I mean multiple things there. I love the question. Caregivers give care, right? That's what, that's what we do. We, you know, caregivers in many forms like, you know, you're, you know, working for bio girls and it's nonprofit, you know, I'm a pastor at a church, I'm a caregiver. I used to be a CNA at a hospital working with, you know, people who are quite older than me and helping them with a lot of different things. There are many people, you know, adults probably even listening here today, who in some way, shape or form as a parent, you know, they, they give care. But one of the things that I think can hinder us is as caregivers, we forget that we need care too. It, it's very hard to receive care when we feel like we're in a place that, you know, nope, that's not actually what I'm supposed to do.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
16:39
That's a sign of weakness. I need to be the one helping people. I don't actually need help myself. And that mentality is just so almost to a point, it can be very dangerous. 'cause when we're trying to help other people, everything that's inside of us is going to come out sideways in one way, shape or form. If I got all this stuff internally going on and I'm trying to help other people, I may be able to help them little by little. But I think all that stuff, if I'm not dealing with it in my own life, I'm actually not gonna be doing the service that I think that I'm doing in trying to help other people. 'cause I, I, they can tell, or, you know, I'm working through things myself and I'm not in a place where I'm actually able to help people in the way that I think.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
17:23
I think back to this last year, you know, we, I kind of experienced some of this myself. So we have our newest daughter, Betty, who's almost four months here. And she's just such a delight. There's a point early on where we thought that we were gonna lose her when, when Jade was pregnant with her. And, you know, I'm not someone who cries to show emotion. Like that's just not how I show emotion. But one of the things unintentionally that I did is I kind of stuffed it and it was just kind of all internal and I didn't do it necessarily on purpose, but it just kind of sat with me. And in that time of my life I was going through some other things, you know, and this was kind of the icing on the cake that for the first time really brought me, made me probably the most anxious I've ever been in my life.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
18:13
I've never, in a huge sense struggled with like depression or things like that, you know, in major ways, little things here and there. But this was a point where it's not like I, it was terrible, but I was, I was pretty like down and I, I realized I needed to do something, you know, I never at that point seen a counselor myself. I never had to work through things in a, a more organized fashion other than just, you know, connecting with a friend or something. But I talked to my wife and I just said, Hey, I'm, I'm struggling a little bit more than I, I think I have in the past. I think I, I could benefit from, from using help. And so got plugged in with a counselor and oh my gosh, like, just the, the freedom that that brought me to not only like share with a friend, which is really good, but to have someone who's almost like a third party who, you know, doesn't really know me and all the, all the other things.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
19:10
And being able for me to share, Hey, here's what's going on in my mind. And for them to listen to that, but also like help bring correction. 'cause I had a lot of things going on in my mind that were really like almost self-destructive. Sure. And, and were not helpful for me. And what I found is that in getting care I've become a better pastor. I think there's, there's something about that. I think it's, it's probably pride on my end, you know, before of like, Nope, I don't need help. I just need to help other people. But there was just this humbling of, of myself recognizing, hey there, there's something that actually is needed for me. And once that was addressed, I felt like, okay, I, I feel like I'm able not only to breathe more, but to think more clearly and be present for people who are going through their things.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
19:59
'cause it's not fair for them if I'm trying to help fix their life if I got all kinds of stuff going on in my own life. And so that's kind of part of the journey. Like, if we're gonna give care, we also need to be willing to receive care. And that's a very, a very hard thing to do. And then another thing you kind of mentioned was, you know, age appropriate. You know, I think that's huge too. 'cause for kids it is incredibly important for them to see As adults, we go through hardship too, that we never graduate from pain or suffering. We never graduate from grief. This is something that we experience and I think it's good and it's healthy for our kids to see us as adults struggle with things from time to time and not have all the answers, everything all put together like that.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
20:48
We're trying to figure that out too. At the same time, you know, to as an adult express that in an age appropriate way. You know, if, if a child has two parents who are going through a divorce, you know, this, this family is going through a very challenging time. You know, I, it would probably be appropriate for the parents to sit down with their child and say, Hey, this is painful for me too. Like, this is, this is a very hard thing. You know, this isn't what we wanted. This is something that we're going through. It wouldn't be as appropriate for a parent to sit down and say, Hey, here are all the details of why we're getting divorced. That that wouldn't be helpful for the child. That would not be honoring to the other spouse. You know, it, it just, that would probably be be a boundary where you just need to say, Hey, it's okay for them to see it. They don't need to know all the details, but it's okay for them to see. Like, we are, we're not perfect. We're gonna go through things too.
Laura Scott
21:43
Absolutely. We have, but we've started in my house. So I have two daughters, they're 11 and 13. We've started in the evening, we'll, you know, sit around as everyone's kind of getting ready for bed and share two to three things we're worried about and two to three things we're grateful for. And so the other night we were going around just kind of sharing and my husband shared what he was worried about and my youngest daughter looked at him and it was like a light bulb had gone off. She said, I can't believe that you get worried or are anxious about anything. And so I think you're absolutely right that the modeling and the role modeling that it's okay to have worries and it's okay to be sad. It's okay to have those emotions. It is so important for our kids to see that it's normal Yeah. To go through those ups and downs. But knowing that, you know, whether it's a, a family member, a teacher, a pastor, a youth group leader, there's people there for them to help support them through those situations.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
22:41
Totally. Yep. And I can't expect them to open up if I'm not willing to open up myself.
Laura Scott
22:47
Absolutely. Yeah. Perfect. I love that. So we've talked a little bit about this, but I'm curious, you know, as families are going through that grief together, I think there's sometimes disconnection that comes from that as maybe we all kind of try to internalize, or some people try to internalize that grief. What tips or recommendations do you have for families or groups to stay connected or to reconnect with one another as they're navigating through those difficult situations?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
23:20
Yeah, one of the huge things, of course is prayer. Prayer is a huge, very, very powerful thing. You know, and it's maybe easy for me to say that as a pastor, of course, to say, I can of course pray. But the reality is, is I, I'm not, I don't pray because I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. 'cause I pray because I see the value of, of what that can bring. One of my coworkers here at Hope, her name is Nicole Wise, who does hope kids, she does children's ministry. And she gave me just this phenomenal illustration, probably four or five years ago. And I, I use it all the time. And so she, she drew a triangle and she wrote God up on the top of the triangle and then two people on the very bottom. So in this analogy, we could say, God's on the top, here I am on the bottom left, and here's my family on the bottom right.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
24:14
And so me and my family, we have a connection with each other. Even if you were to take God completely out of the mix, like we have time that we've spent together, you know, there's a, there's a certain level that we can feel a, a bond and a connection with one another. And we each, you know, when you add God to the mix, we each have our own personal relationship with God. So we each have our connection with God going up. But there's something that happens when we see it, not as just an individual journey, but as a journey that we're doing together. And what God does, I think by design is the closer that you actually move towards God together. Not o only are you both getting closer to God. Just as the triangle gets narrower and narrower, you're actually getting closer to each other.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
24:56
And I think that's what he does, is he, he blesses us when we have faith as a, a deeper foundation to say, Hey, when we go through hard times, here's something that we can really rely on together, that we can pray, we can connect in this way. I think that has the power to connect to people or a group of people in ways that nothing else really in this life can, can do to connect them in that way. Again, we can, you know, have all these shared experiences and those are great, but the power of prayer is in prayer. We are, especially when we pray out loud with somebody, with a spouse, with a child, with a group of people, it's maybe a little awkward at first. We don't always know what words to say. But when we say that out loud, what we're doing is we're revealing the kind of the depths of our heart, the depths of our soul.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
25:44
Things that maybe we wouldn't talk about in normal conversation, but things that were like, Hey, here's something like what you said that I'm worried about this week, or here's something that I'm, you know, you know, really joyful about or something that I'm struggling with that wouldn't just come up in normal conversation. You're saying, Hey, I, I want prayer for this. And that creates such a, an important opportunity for, for a family to reconnect, especially if they have a shared grief that they've been going through together. And so prayer, I'd say is, is huge. And then at the same time, just, you know, thinking about this, like, it's okay to have fun too. Like do do things that you used to do prior to the grief and grief can interrupt rhythms of life. You know, you used to do all these things together as a family and then you experience hardship and it kind of slows things down and then you feel disconnected. It doesn't have to be serious all the time. It's okay. Like, go get ice cream together. You know, have a family dinner, you know, know, go go do some, you know, trip to the park or, or some way to connect where you're having time where it's, it's not always serious where you're able just to have fun, but also where they kids can know, like, I know if I have something serious, I need to talk about that this is a safe place for me to do that.
Laura Scott
27:02
Yeah. I love that joy and laughter often is the best medicine. Totally. And I think we, now I know we need to add a family prayer to our, our nightly routine of sharing worries and what we're gratitude Yeah. Grateful for. Absolutely. Perfect. Well, we're coming to the end of our time together today, so I'm curious if there's any final words of wisdom or words of advice you would add or anything else you wanted to share today.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
27:25
Yeah, I think when we're talking about grief and when we're talking about pain and suffering, we worship a God who, you know, a lot of religions in this world, they, they place a focus on, you know, you're called to give up for your God, or it's a sacrifice for your God to suffer, for your God. We worship a God who actually suffered for us. And to remember that what we go through in this life, grief, pain, hurt, it's all real. Like these, these are real things, but it's not the end of the story that Jesus living, the perfect life that he, that anyone has ever lived. He, he lived a life without sin. He went to a cross, he gave his life on that cross. On the third day, he rose again defeating death, defeating the devil, defeating all powers of darkness, the grave forever and ever.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
28:17
And when we trust in Jesus, his sacrifice, not only is my personal sin forgiven, which I have that you know there, of course grief is a result of the brokenness and sin of the world. But also he gives me hope for a future that all pain, all suffering, all sin, all brokenness will be no more. Revelation 21 talks about a kingdom that is to come for those who trust in Jesus, for it'll have a kingdom where there is no more crying and there's no more pain, there's no more suffering. There's no more death. John the apostle, he says, tho those things have gone. The old order things has gone, the new has come. And so to remember that, yes, the things that we go through are so hard in this life, but what the Bible says is these are a light and momentary affliction that are working for us in eternal weight of glory.
Pastor Ben Sullivan
29:11
Meaning that the little suffering that we experience, the little hardship that we experience here, is almost just a foreshadow of a world someday that we will experience where that is no more. And so in the midst of this to recognize, yep, you know, until we see the Lord face to face, we're gonna go through hardship, we're gonna go through pain, but there's hope. And there can be joy in the midst of hardship and pain, knowing that Jesus has conquered all a sin, all death upon the cross. And because he has been raised to life, we have the hope of a new kingdom someday where all things will be made. Right. Again,
Laura Scott
29:47
Thank you so much. Would you mind sending us out in prayer?
Pastor Ben Sullivan
29:50
Yes, absolutely. Father, we do just thank you for our time together today. Thank you Lord for all the people who have joined in on this conversation with us. And Lord, we recognize today that we are not immune to grief. We are not immune to brokenness or to sin. We are not immune to suffering. But we thank you that Jesus came to be God in the flesh and to suffer for us so that there would be a day when we would have to suffer no more that he bore our suffering so that we wouldn't have to, so that we could be reconnected with you once again. And so Father, I pray for everyone listening to that, that that would give them a sense of incredible peace in their life, hope in their life. I pray that you would use this time, Lord, to encourage connection with one another, to encourage connection ultimately with you Lord, and that through that Lord, you would strengthen these men and women who are listening to this today, to remember that yes, we are in a world where things are not perfect, but because of our perfect God, you are leading us to the way everlasting and setting us free and bringing us to a kingdom that will have no end and have no grief. Give us that joy today. Lord bless everyone who's here today. And thank you for your time again today. In Jesus name, amen. Amen.